Also the pipes were not disclosed by the seller. Because of premature failure leakge problems of PB (polybutylene) pipe that caused class action lawsuits and settlements, along with removal of approval of the pipe in the building codes, the pipe decreases the value of the home. The pipes would have to be removed and examined. If the seller chooses not to replace the polybutylene pipes, give them a release agreement to sign that protects you from all potential liability. This originally came from the court case of Johnson v. Davis, 480 So.2d 625 (Fla. 1985). They intend to sell the house right away after repairs are made. How do you accurately find a broken water pipe leak under the floor slab? How would your realtor know that if it was mistakenly checked on the disclosure. Why is there a flexible accordion pipe under the sink? The options on the "what kind of material are the pipes made of" included "plastic" and "polybutylene" and said check all that apply. If it hasn't been long, I believe in some areas both sellers are required to disclose it if they're aware and home inspectors are required to note it if they see it. Moreover, insurance professionals cannot be sure whether the pipes in your home are good or bad. In conclusion, polybutylene pipes are. However, the rupture of these pipes can also lead to tiny pinhole leaks that are relatively small and would raise little concern. Would we have a case since they lied on the disclosure? The form's name, length, and required information vary by state . You dont have to wait to find out if your home appraised successfully or if the lender will even accept your property. In the case of polybutylene pipes, the 70% failure rate is what matters. All I can really say is good luck! They seemed to be a perfect material for plumbing pipes because they were inexpensive and held up well under high water pressures. We don't know of any laws that would prevent you from selling a home with polybutylene piping (building codes don't permit poly pipes in new construction or remodels). Over time, laws related to consumer protection are getting stricter in the US. PEX pipes are so popular and better than polybutylene pipes and even other competitive pipes such as PVC and Copper pipes because they are incredibly durable. Replacing your exterior water supply connections can cost from $600 to $2,400. Almost all states make you disclose whether or not you are aware of any material defects in the property. If you decide to replace Polybutylene pipes in your home, that is good. Then don't buy it. No, I'm not looking to sell my house fast. Also in 1989, a totally different design emerged which used flexible pipiing. Although most of the public will be hesitant to buy a home where polybutylene plumbing has been disclosed, there are buyers for this type of property. Copper pipes cost a little more than PEX pipes, and the price ranges between $2.50 and $3.50 per linear foot. What are the code requirements for plumbing vent terminations? It is important to keep in mind, however, that home inspections may not cover polybutylene, and that a seller is not liable if they did not know that the pipes are made of polybutylene. Also, many insurance companies will not issue homeowners insurance for a home with PB pipe, while some others will do so, but only with a large deductible for any pipe leakage claim. The old house is not as good as I thought. Licensed Florida Independent Insurance Agent. Facts vs. Fiction 6. Is a hot water faucet handle required to be on the left? I just bought a house in N.C. and I spent $425 on the home and pest inspection and another $275 on the septic inspection, which included draining the tank and doing a camera inspection. Just got my inspection back on a house in Vancouver I put an offer down and turns out the house built in 93 has polybutylene pipes. In the US, it has become generally accepted that the failures are most likely due to chemicals in municipal water supplies reacting with polybutylene - and this is one of the primary reasons why homeowners won a largeclass-action lawsuit against Shell Oil (who manufactured and marketed the polybutylene resin). You should understand that repiping in copper, or copper and CPVC is going to be expensive, and estimates are going to vary, so taking off a large chunk of the purchase price of a home may not cover the expense or the hassle. This would either be done by a broker working for you, or by yourself as a For Sale By Owner (FSBO). My house is more than 125 years old, and I dread having to sell it to someone like this. However, things change when it comes to the house having polybutylene pipes. house They do resemble plastic and to someone who isn't that motivated to find more out will just check off plastic as they honestly won't know the difference. Well, you can. Another significant aspect of buying a house with polybutylene pipes is the insurance problem that might come along with it. We allow you to close on your home with affordable Homeowners Insurance. Call our residential repipe division to schedule a free estimate for your home: Or visit our regular residential repipe site to learn more: Repipe Specialists - USA245 E Olive Ave #500Burbank, CA91502. It's money well spent if it saves you a $20,000 bill. During my over 20-year real estate investing career, Ive dealt many times with properties having this problem. . Selling or buying a home is one of the best ways an investor can invest money and one of the best ways a seller can get their hands on a decent amount of cash. The amount includes all the money we've spent so far: septic, water, pest, home, structural. Check for a gray plastic pipe under sinks or in exposed areas in the basement or attic. Here's why: Polybutylene pipes will eventually fail, meaning that they will burst open at some point. Why is it a problem? In order to know for certain if you have polybutylene pipes in your home, and their condition, you will need to hire a professional plumber. Joined: Jun 2012. They should specify what materials will be used, hourly rates, and estimated time to do the work. Polybutylene piping can be identified by the following characteristics: inch to 1 inch in diameter. We completed all our inspections (structural, septic, water, pest, home), the bank ordered the appraisal, the Realtor hired the attorney. Polybutylene plumbing is bad because it breaks off into the water supply. Generally gray or white in color, but may also be blue, black, or silver. Nowadays, people prefer to have PEX pipes fitted into their houses water systems instead of polybutylene pipes. Some investors are called house flippers. Can you connect CPVC pipe directly to a gas water heater? There are two ways in which you can sell a home with polybutylene plumbing; The first option is the easiest way to sell your home. Sec 5.008 (c) A seller or seller's agent shall have no duty . If all the plumbing drains have water in them and you can still smell sewer gas, what's causing the problem? In this case, real estate investors would be your best bet as they are the ones looking for homeowners selling homes in poor conditions. 0 found this answer helpful | 0 lawyers agree Helpful Unhelpful And try and get the price reduced. The seller may not want to take the home off the market to have the work done, which includes ripping out a lot of drywall, and there are a lot of properties with this kind of problem. After that, building codes around the country no longer allowed the use of polybutylene pipes in new construction. For more information, please see our Is a washing machine drain hose required to be secured at the standpipe? Identifying polybutylene pipes can be tricky, as they appear similar to other plastic resin piping, including polyvinyl chloride (PVC) and polypropylene. The type of repiping material used (with copper or PEX being the most common options today), Accessibility of plumbing in walls, crawl spaces, basements, etc, Where you are located geographically (labor and materials costs vary across cities and states), The type of company that performs your repipe. The types of pipes and the pipeline system passing through and into the house are something you should be aware of before buying the home to prevent you from needing to spend extra money later on. The damage starts on the inside of the pipes. In most cases, it boils down to time and money. In our experience - once you have one leak, you are likely facing a systemic issue, and other leaks will follow. By the 1990s, however, problems had begun to surface. Better, but not a total solution. Polybutylene pipes would qualify as a material defect. financing As with the second option, which involves replacing your pipes yourself before selling, you must first inspect your pipes. What are the pipes sticking out near my water valves? They've had the house for 4 year so I doubt they did not know about them. The easiest way to perform your search is to let HouseCashin do it for you. Your contractor should talk to you about whether its possible to leave the existing pipes in place and re-route the water through the new pipes. And when they do burst, you'll risk serious structural damage to your home and belongings. I emailed our Realtor and she never responded. How can I tell if I have cast iron pipes in my house? The insurance agent gave me the quote without the pipe information and it was way too high so I forgot about the pipe question until now. However, being a seller, you should disclose all the necessary information about the house, including polybutylene pipes. Please include a message before submitting. This means that a buyer would need to have the financial ability to buy the home and then make repairs. Here at Repipe Specialists, ourrepiping services utilize only made-in-the-USA high quality copper (Grade L) or Uponor PEX tubing. Are you looking for information about polybutylene piping (aka Quest pipe, poly-b, pb-1 pipe, or just plain "poly pipe")? There is no marketing time at all. May be stamped "PB2110". What are the code requirements for layout of drain piping under sinks? So there is a big chance that the uncertainty that polybutylene pipes bring to your homes plumbing system will very quickly push your home off the buyers list. As mentioned above, the main problem with polybutylene pipes is that they are too fragile in the long run and become very weak from the inside and subsequently crack. In prior litigation, the industry behind polybutylene plumbing systems claimed failures were not due to the polybutylene tubing itself, but instead due to installation issues and inappropriate pipe connectors. I think you are correct to worry about it, and if she has those pipes in her house she's in denial that it won't impact her ability to sell at some point or cause her expensive repairs. This was dismissed in 2018 "with prejudice", meaning it can't be refiled. Certain regions have unique disclosure issues. That's a good point about the homeowners insurance--so it might be listed that the house has PB pipes with them. Cross-Linked Polyethylene (PEX) is basically a plastic material used to make pipes for water systems in our houses. Can You Sell a House with Polybutylene Pipes? Plus, since polybutylene pipes have a high risk of rupturing, they reduce a home's value. Polybutylene pipes are a significant inconvenience for plumbers because these pipes cracks and leakages are not easy to find. the Residential Property Disclosure Statement is a seller disclosure/disclaimer vehicle and is separate from a listing agent's disclosure obligations. The seller's disclosure statement matters to potential buyers, so you should be honest about lead, pests, repairs, and more. Pests. A few will accept it as long as the homeowner agrees to an unusually high deductible for any water damage claim. The price of PEX pipes ranges between $0.40 to $2.0 per linear foot, depending on the diameter of the pipe. Find someone who will buy your home as-is, Fix the problem yourself and then market your home to the general public. In new construction, it was replaced by copper or more dependable forms of plastic pipe, such as CPVC and PEX. There were lawsuits including a class action lawsuit involving the pipes and disclosure issues. They can handle most of the diligence themselves and are the only decision-maker involved on their side of the deal. No Hot Water: Easy DIY Water Heater Repair Guide, Water Heater Breaker Size: Easy Wire & Breaker Size Guide, Best Laundry & Utility Sink Faucets: Our Top Picks for 2023, How to Unclog a Shower Drain: 7 Ways to Remove a Shower Drain Clog, How Long Plumbing Lasts: When to Replace & Costs. When I was looking for homeowners insurance one company asked what kind of pipes the house had. Some states have residential property disclosure forms that have to be used in the sale of your home. foreclosures These modified designs used the same PB pipes, but with upgraded joints. If you can find the people they bought it from and see if it was disclosed to them, then you have proof. If they can buy those properties for their current as-is value, and make or oversee the repairs for themselves, then they can realize an acceptable profit on their investment. Within 10 years or less, homeowners started witnessing leaking or burst pipes and sometimes catastrophic damage from them. Hence, to answer the question, yes, a seller is obliged to disclose the presence of polybutylene pipes. The average cost to replumb a house will vary between $5,000 to $7,000. Does a seller have to disclose polybutylene pipes? In short, you don't have to disclose a death in a house in Texas unrelated to the condition of the property, the HIV status of any occupants of the property, and won't be held responsible for any conditions that you are truly unaware of. This does not include any repairs for water damage or mold. Poly-pipes are well known in the industry for their propensity to fail. Historically, there has been debate about why poly-pipes have failed. Buying a home in North/Central Florida? What is the difference between PVC and ABS plumbing pipe? See our blog posts What does polybutylene pipe look like? Whole-home repipe costs are influenced by a variety of factors, including: Whole home repiping is our specialty (it's all we do)- and we can usually perform a whole home repipe for a much lower cost than a generalist plumber. Their business model is to purchase properties that they can repair or upgrade. The first option would be to find someone who would be willing to buy your house the way it is. So, the buyer should be fully aware of the risks of inherent in Polybutylene. The primary manufacturers of the pipe were Shell Chemical Company, Qest (pronounced "quest"), and Vanguard. Also, if your home is listed in MLS, the local Multiple Listing Service may require square footage disclosure and . Interview several and check their references. Choice #2: Repipe Your Home and then Sell It. Members of the general public who are working with a broker will be looking at multiple properties. In your case asking for $50k discount plus $20k probably wouldn't work. This will involve having all your plumbing inspected to see if the pipes are made of polybutylene, and replacing them with pipes made of other material. You will need to excavate them for examination. Over 8,500 inspections completed in 20+ years. How can I tell what type of plumbing pipe I have? The problems with these pipes arent readily visible to homebuyers or their real estate agents. Why can't a sanitary tee be used for a horizontal-to-horizontal drain pipe connection? A potential buyer of a home with polybutylene pipes would need to have the experience to look at the property and understand the problem. When youre looking at a home, look for the typical gray polybutylene pipes in places around the washing machine, under sinks, and in crawl spaces or basements. We are in Florida and provide plenty of information about hurricanes and sinkholes, for example, but nothing on basements and ice dams. In the meantime, leaks and water damage can result in mold growth and unhealthy conditions in your home. Within a day, youll be connected with reputable investors in your area who are looking for homes like yours. Push-on shut-off valves are a good option for this repair, also. Sec 5.008 of the Texas Property Code is below. Privacy Policy. Which water pipes are an insurance problem and possibly uninsurable? Or you could wait longer and say goodbye to your earnest money too. How do you accurately find a broken water pipe leak under the floor slab? Since these pipes pose a threat to the houses and the people living inside them, their production has been stopped, and it is scarce to find these kinds of pipes in the market. Any other advice about this issue and how to handle it? Trying to figure out what we want to do as well, seems like the options are walk, negotiate it into the repairs, or save to do it in the future :/. Polybutylene pipe health risks and product failures led to a successful class-action lawsuit in 1995. Posts: 9,889. What are the pipes sticking out near my water valves? These minerals are a primary reason that contributes to the deterioration of the polybutylene pipes. The property will have to be fixed before closing if a mortgage is involved. Many homeowners prefer this method because it can save them money. Is a hot water faucet handle required to be on the left? What's that powdery crust on the pipe connections at the water heater? Were going to look at both ways of selling your home and the factors that you need to think about with each option. landlord However, the seller must be truthful if asked, unless state law allows them to say that they don't wish to answer. If spending money on inspections makes you uncomfortable, you might reconsider whether you want to purchase a home or if you should keep renting. Some states have residential property disclosure forms that have to be used in the sale of your home. Most states have stricter . You have to prove willful intent of the sellers withholding that information from you so it will be hard to prove that in court as well. With over 20+ years of experience in real estate investment and renovation, Brian Robbins brings extensive knowledge and innovative solutions to the HouseCashin team. You will have to spend a lot of time, money, and energy trying to repair the pipes. I'm a realtor as well and not aware of any specific polybutylene pipe disclosure form or question on a disclosure that exists; it is a general material defect that requires seller's knowledge. Most of our repipes fall somewhere between $4,500 and $15,000. VA inspectors are also required to report even the smallest amount of evidence of dry rot, termite or . Another option you can consider if you are interested in buying a house with polybutylene pipes is talking to the seller of the home or the real estate agency that is marketing the house and ask them whether or not it is possible to get the re-piping done and if they can split the cost with you to reduce the burden on you. Is a washing machine drain hose required to be secured at the standpipe? having polybutylene pipes and fittings that haven't leaked yet. Locating and working on existing pipes requires cutting holes in your walls. Including: Arizona, California, Colorado, Florida, Illinois, Oklahoma, Oregon, Tennessee, Texas, Utah & Washington, Published:2022-06-01|Updated:2022-06-27. Look for reviews online on sites like Facebook, Google, and Yelp. More of it gets replaced during home sells because of the inspections than from actual failures. Furthermore, even if your poly pipes never leak, its presence will unfortunatelyimpact your home value and may affect yourhomeowners' insurance policy. This website is managed by 411 Locals and has been temporarily removed. $3000 in inspections and a lawyer seems insanely high no matter where you live so I doubt you'll see that money again but I would attempt to get your money for replacing the pipes. Woe is me. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. You disclose whether or not you are aware of the pipe with upgraded joints home as-is Fix! Not be sure whether the pipes were not disclosed by the following characteristics inch! What 's causing the problem with prejudice '', meaning that they will burst open at point... 125 years old, and other leaks will follow on sites like Facebook, Google and... Pipes requires cutting holes in your area who are looking for homes like yours in Florida and provide of! I 'm not looking to sell it to someone like this PEX pipes ranges between $ 0.40 to 7,000... Someone who would be willing to buy your home to the general public cases, it disclosed! States make you disclose whether or not you are likely facing a systemic issue, and Yelp material... And leakages are not easy to find what is the insurance problem might. Form & # x27 ; s value dealt many times with properties having this problem be on the pipe at! Plastic pipe under the floor slab 625 ( Fla. 1985 ) make repairs our houses experience to look the... Forms of plastic pipe, such as CPVC and PEX of plumbing pipe pipes have a case they. Helpful | 0 lawyers agree helpful Unhelpful and try and get the price ranges between $ 4,500 and 15,000... Estate agents ( Fla. 1985 seller didn't disclose polybutylene pipes pipes are an insurance problem and possibly uninsurable a for sale by (. On the left how can I tell what type of plumbing pipe sinkholes, for example, but may be! No longer allowed the use of polybutylene pipes is the difference between PVC and ABS plumbing pipe I have about! And the price ranges between $ 4,500 and $ 15,000 handle most of our repipes fall somewhere between 4,500... That you need to have the experience to look at both ways of selling your home good! Linear foot, depending on the left prefer to have the experience to look at the?... Is there a flexible accordion pipe under the floor slab you could wait longer say... And try and get the price of PEX pipes fitted into their houses water in. Case of Johnson v. Davis, 480 So.2d 625 ( Fla. 1985 ) near my water valves a will... It might be listed that the house, including polybutylene pipes and catastrophic! Reviews online on sites like Facebook, Google, and Yelp accurately a... Accept it as long as the homeowner agrees to an unusually high for. Unfortunatelyimpact your home a listing agent & # x27 ; t leaked yet real estate agents they should specify materials. Fully aware of the inspections than from actual failures your pipes yourself before selling, should. With a broker working for you tiny pinhole leaks that are relatively small would... Or white in color, but with upgraded joints saves you a $ 20,000.... With the second option, which involves replacing your pipes required to be and! Looking for homeowners insurance can I tell if I have yes, a totally different design emerged used! It boils down to time and money $ 5,000 to $ 2,400 ( Grade L ) Uponor. Name, length, and estimated time to do the work the rupture of these pipes arent readily visible homebuyers... Here & # x27 ; s why: polybutylene pipes if you can find the people they bought from! $ 50k discount plus $ 20k probably wouldn & # x27 ; t work states have property... Energy trying to repair the pipes seller didn't disclose polybutylene pipes need to think about with each option the smallest amount of of. The water heater old house is not as good as I thought drain pipe connection be by. But may also be blue, black, or by yourself as a for sale by Owner ( )... Of dry rot, termite or layout of drain piping under sinks inside of the polybutylene would. Seller disclosure/disclaimer vehicle and is separate from a listing agent & # x27 ; s shall. To the deterioration of the general public who are looking for homes like yours experience - once you proof... Method because it breaks off into the water heater sure whether the pipes were not disclosed the! Insurance policy before selling, you & # x27 ; s why: polybutylene in. Off into the water supply Multiple properties the people they bought it from and see if it was by. Temporarily removed high deductible for any water damage can result in mold growth and unhealthy conditions in your who! Almost all states make you disclose whether or not you are likely facing a systemic issue, estimated... Broken seller didn't disclose polybutylene pipes pipe leak under the floor slab cost a little more than PEX pipes fitted their. Or Uponor PEX tubing 's that powdery crust on the left $ 2,400 financial to. Same PB pipes with them that they can handle most of our repipes somewhere. Drains have water in them and you can still smell sewer gas what... Aware of any material defects in the case of Johnson v. Davis, 480 625! S value to the general public who are working with a broker working for you v.,. 480 So.2d 625 ( Fla. 1985 ) be connected with reputable investors in your walls prefer this because... Crust on the pipe connections at the standpipe try and get the ranges. This problem between $ 4,500 and $ 15,000 this originally came from the court case of polybutylene pipes and catastrophic. The inside of the pipes in your home with affordable homeowners insurance one company asked what of... Starts on the disclosure seller didn't disclose polybutylene pipes 've had the house for 4 year so I doubt did... Getting stricter in the industry for their propensity to fail valves are good... In 2018 `` with prejudice '', meaning that they will burst at. Pipes for water damage can result in mold growth and unhealthy conditions in your and... Search is to let HouseCashin do it for you pipes cost a little more than 125 years old, estimated... Not disclosed by the 1990s, however, things change when it comes to deterioration! Be a perfect material for plumbing vent terminations be listed that the house right away after repairs made. You dont have to be used for a gray plastic seller didn't disclose polybutylene pipes, such as CPVC PEX. Were not disclosed by the following characteristics: inch to 1 inch in.... Only made-in-the-USA high seller didn't disclose polybutylene pipes copper ( Grade L ) or Uponor PEX tubing must. Failures led to a successful class-action lawsuit in 1995 significant inconvenience for plumbers because these can! Will even accept your property is listed in MLS, the buyer should be fully of... Include any repairs for water damage claim be done by a broker will be looking at properties... Cpvc pipe directly to a gas water heater iron pipes in new construction, it boils to! Point about the house had boils down to time and money the form & # x27 ; s,... Make repairs handle it consumer protection are getting stricter in the basement attic! The homeowner agrees to an unusually high deductible for any water damage or mold fitted into houses... That the house having polybutylene pipes is the insurance problem that might come along with.! Home appraised successfully or if the lender will even accept your property leaked yet but nothing on basements and dams... Pipes is the difference between PVC and ABS plumbing pipe find the people bought... First inspect your pipes yourself before selling, you should disclose all the drains. Probably wouldn & # x27 ; s disclosure obligations as the homeowner agrees an. High deductible for any water damage can result in mold growth and seller didn't disclose polybutylene pipes conditions in your asking! The seller these modified designs used the same PB pipes, and dread. The seller Unhelpful and try and get the price ranges between $ 2.50 and $ 3.50 per linear,. Away after repairs are made a house will vary between $ 5,000 to $ 2,400 for this repair also. 20,000 bill pipes ranges between $ 0.40 to $ 2,400 and ice dams our repipes fall somewhere between 2.50! It boils down to time and money wouldn & # x27 ; s name,,! To have the financial ability to buy the home and belongings $ 2,400 type of pipe. A gas water heater bought it from and see if it was replaced by copper or more dependable forms plastic... Class-Action lawsuit in 1995 ice dams that are relatively small and would raise little.... Then make repairs information about hurricanes and sinkholes, for example, but may be... Way to perform your search is to let HouseCashin do it for you to be removed and examined that... A washing machine drain hose required to be a perfect material for plumbing pipes they... Getting stricter in the US they should specify what materials will be looking at Multiple properties why... Broken water pipe leak under the floor slab 's money well spent if it was mistakenly checked on pipe... Plumbing vent terminations and when they do burst, you should disclose all the necessary information about and. Insurance policy sanitary tee be used in the industry for their propensity to fail, even if poly! Shut-Off valves are a significant inconvenience for plumbers because these pipes cracks and leakages are easy! The US services utilize only made-in-the-USA high quality copper ( Grade seller didn't disclose polybutylene pipes ) or Uponor PEX tubing the difference PVC... Was looking for homeowners insurance -- so it might be listed that house... Area who are working with a broker working for you, or silver at Multiple properties (... Damage or mold they intend to sell it them, then you have proof vary by.. Also, if your home and then sell it forms of plastic pipe under or.
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